What if the parts of yourself you've spent your life trying to hide actually hold your greatest gifts? In this episode, Linda Manning welcomes Tani Thole and Leslie Rogers, founders of the Light Dark Institute, for a fascinating conversation about shadow work, self-acceptance, and the transformative power of embracing every part of ourselves. They explore the difference between "light work," which focuses on healing and growth, and "dark work," which invites us to meet the parts we've rejected with curiosity and compassion. Together they discuss why fear, judgment, anger, neediness, and other uncomfortable emotions may be pointing us toward deeper wisdom rather than something to avoid. They also share practical insights for navigating anxiety, relationships, and today's increasingly polarized world with greater self-awareness, courage, and love. If you've ever wondered whether the parts of yourself you resist most could become your greatest source of freedom, this conversation offers a fresh and compassionate perspective.
Learn more about the Light Dark Institute and their workshops at:
https://lightdarkinstitute.com
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(0:01) Okay, welcome back listeners. I am so excited today with my guests. Before we get to that, (0:09) of course, today's as usual is sponsored by Ignite Your Intuition. Run to your Amazon (0:14) store and put Ignite Your Intuition in the cart and then go buy it. And that is it's (0:19) a great tool and training for how to inspire you with your own intuition. Well, today, (0:25) I have two guests, not just one, but two, twofer, and it is Tani Thole and Leslie Rogers,
(0:33) and they are the founders of the Light Dark Institute, which is devoted to helping people (0:38) fall in love with the parts of themselves and the world that they have most rejected. (0:44) So I know in this time and day, we can all use some light to go with some of the dark (0:48) that we're experiencing. Their work weaves shadow exploration, embodied power play, and (0:54) bold encounters with the raw, untamed places we usually turn away from. Known for making (1:01) even the most challenging inner terrain feel safe and accessible. They support leaders
(1:08) and seekers alike to meet the darkness with love and to live, lead, and relate from a (1:14) place of wholeness. So I am really excited to have them because I have personally had (1:21) some experience of Tani and Leslie in a workshop, and it was amazing. They're super powerful (1:27) and insightful. So I'm really excited to introduce them to you. So welcome. (1:34) Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us to be here, Linda. Yeah,
(1:38) it's a pleasure to be here with you. And hello to everybody who's listening. So, um, so as (1:45) we, you know, as we asked many people, we'd love to hear like Light Dark Institute and (1:50) working with all the shadows. That's a very, um, that's a very deep work that you guys do. And so (1:57) I'm curious, maybe personally or together, how did you start working on that kind of deep shadow work? (2:08) I would say we both had been in a real exploration in our personal lives. And, and maybe in a few
(2:14) minutes, we can get into our definitions of, of light and dark and how we hold that. But we had (2:19) both really been in different explorations before we met each other, of, of both the light side and (2:26) the dark side in our in our lives, and how to how to make those mesh, you know, how to how to bring (2:32) together the kind of enlightened, caring, service oriented sides of us, and then the sides that (2:40) wanted to get to know things about, you know, sex, intimacy, like, the darker flavors of life, etc.
(2:47) And we both had been on on paths exploring that in different ways. And when we came together, (2:52) it was a moment of really, there's, there's a much longer story to this, but but it's a good (2:58) one to catch another time we, when we came together, we really intentionally dove into (3:03) an exploration of power dynamics and finding ways to explore the shadows, like I specifically was (3:10) really looking for a partner to explore those things with me. And Leslie felt the call and said,
(3:14) yes. And we dove in and found it to be profoundly, profoundly transformational. (3:21) And the work really was born through what we were exploring in our in our own personal relationship. (3:26) So much more. You have lived, you've lived this. Yeah, right. You've walked this walk yourself, (3:32) it sounds like. Yeah. And Tani, what Tani said does remind me listeners, just a quick disclaimer, (3:40) we will we you know, there may be some sexual topics or adult topics that come up. So just
(3:45) make sure that the whoever's listening, that's appropriate for them. Okay, now, back to you, (3:51) Leslie, anything you want to add? Well, I'll just well, just to add what what we were both (3:57) looking at and exploring was everything's outside of our sense of identity, like the preferences of (4:06) good and bad, like something beyond that, both in both of our spiritual explorations, we were (4:12) exploring that. And there's the light side of like, how, you know, all the things we love and
(4:17) approve of and we want to create and change and make in the world. And then there's the dark side (4:22) of like all those things that are and how do we grapple with that reality? And, and when we came (4:30) together, we were both in that journey. And so there was like a really big invitation that lit (4:35) up for for both of us at different times. But then at the same time, when we actually came together
(4:41) of like, wow, oh, there is so much in the dark. There's so much here to like, feel embrace and (4:48) explore outside of identity. Like by identity, I just mean like that, that which I think I am (4:54) all the beliefs and preferences and values I purport to hold. There's there was just we just (5:03) discovered so much more outside of that. And, and, you know, in the light, we're always going (5:08) for like, how do we heal? How do we grow? Do we make things better? But in the dark, we're what
(5:13) we're really, what we're really going for is how to be with what is what is here in a way that (5:20) doesn't just destroy us or, you know, because if we just go towards the light, we get into like an (5:26) avoidance. And I think both of us have experimented with that a lot in our lives. And like avoidance (5:32) and just denial and getting away from and so like how to actually approach this in a way that was
(5:37) really not, you know, for us, what went beyond healing and into like, oh, like the realms (5:45) where the healing is not even needed, because we're actually in the self, we're actually in (5:51) the part of ourselves that that is like, really perfect and able to make the choices that (5:59) are actually coming from real values, not just our conditioned beliefs and things that are (6:03) shaped by trauma and by belief systems, and all of those things that kind of like orient us and
(6:10) make us think the world is a certain way. What we found by exploring power dynamics and exploring (6:15) what was really in the dark was, oh, there's something so much more than that. There's this, (6:22) I love this, this poem from Rumi, Jalaluddin Rumi, who I think the end of it says, (6:29) beyond the fields of right and wrong, or beyond beyond right and wrong, there is a field and I (6:35) will meet you there, where we can actually be and that that is like, well, I think we both really
(6:40) discovered we were both kind of knocking at that door and then the door opened. And there we were (6:44) on the other side, very different than what we imagined. And so that from the moment we came (6:51) together and started exploring, it kind of kind of extreme power dynamics, as it were, both in (6:57) at first in one direction, and then in a different direction, we really started to see like, oh, (7:02) and both for ourselves and our community, there's so much we can just so much if we're ready,
(7:08) if we're willing, if we're if it's, it's the right time to go into the dark. In other words, (7:13) all parts of us are on board with it. We can just instead of chipping away and trying to (7:19) make something better and heal, we can just wake up on the other side of, oh, here I am, (7:24) I'm already there. I'm already perfect. I'm already exactly who I want to be. (7:31) All right, well, that gave me about 20 more questions that I have for you. So, you know,
(7:34) and I know, like when I work with clients, one of the things that I think is often most helpful (7:41) is naming some of the things that they haven't wanted to name. You know, the parts of themselves (7:47) that aren't as pretty or as publicly acceptable. And, you know, there's such a relief, when you (7:56) can actually be seen in all of those parts of yourself, and not just the ones that are (8:03) like on the outside, but actually some of the challenging or darker places. (8:07) Mm hmm. Yeah.
(8:10) So, Tanya, you said something about defining light and darkness, and maybe Leslie did a little (8:14) of that, but I'd love to maybe hear a little bit more. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, first of (8:22) all, there's just what we think of as light and dark itself. And as humans, we literally evolved (8:29) to see in the daytime. And so we have this light orientation. It's like we can see in the light, (8:34) we feel safe, we feel okay with things. So we define light as what we can see and feel safe
(8:40) with. And then dark, if you think about being outside in a dark, you know, moonless forest at (8:45) night, and you're crashing in the bushes, you don't know what's coming towards you, you can't (8:48) see where the paths go. So dark is the sense of anything that we either can't see, or don't feel (8:54) safe with, or don't have approval for. So those are kind of the essences of like, you know, (8:58) it's different for every person, what they define as light, you know, somebody might have total
(9:02) approval for certain aspects of themselves that somebody else totally rejects. So it's actually (9:07) individualized what counts as light and dark for each person. And then society has overall, (9:12) sort of, you know, certain things that are that count as light and certain things that count as (9:16) dark. So those are kind of what we mean broadly by light and dark. And then we also separate a (9:22) definition of what we call light work and dark work. And that's really what we what we put the
(9:26) most attention on in our work. We hold light work, which Leslie touched on briefly, light work is the (9:31) path of healing, progress and change. It's where we look at something and we're like, you know what, (9:36) I don't love how this is going, it could be better, I'm going to try to make it better. And that (9:40) applies both within ourselves, when we're working on some pattern in ourselves, we're trying to make (9:44) ourselves better people, or when we're looking out at the world, and we're like, you know what, I want
(9:48) to change this for the better, I want to change the system, I want to change my community, I want to (9:51) change what's happening in my family, at any level, it's where we're trying to change and improve (9:55) things. Dark work, on the other hand, is the path of embracing what is exactly as it is, without the (10:03) need to change it, and then really finding the gifts that are there. Because the darkness, those (10:08) parts of us, again, that we that we can't see or don't have approval for, and those things in the
(10:12) world that we can't see or feel afraid of, there are actually tremendous gifts there. But when (10:18) we're running from them, or we're trying to block them out, or we're trying to avoid, or we're trying (10:21) to heal them and get past these spots, we actually don't have access to the gifts. It's like those (10:27) doors remain closed, those parts remain under lockdown in ourselves, and so then we literally (10:33) don't have access to all the amazing wisdom that they have. And so the dark work is really, it's
(10:38) like putting on the night vision goggles and being like, okay, wait, I'm here in the middle of this (10:42) forest, and there's like crashing in the bushes behind me, and like, wow, do I notice all my senses (10:48) are alive right now? Like, my whole body is alive. I'm in awareness. I'm with the night in a way that (10:56) maybe when I'm walking through that same forest in the day, and I can see, and like, I'm not even, (10:59) I'm not even, I'm checked out. I'm thinking about something else. Exactly. So there, you know,
(11:04) there are so many gifts in the darkness, and these parts of ourselves, we do a lot of work internally, (11:09) a lot of work on internal parts of self, but then how it also ripples and mirrors out to how we (11:16) orient towards the world, and a lot of these parts of ourselves have incredible wisdom and (11:20) incredible creativity, and they can actually literally see options and possibilities for who (11:25) we can be and how we can create things in the world and how we can create the world that we
(11:29) want to live in that the light-oriented sides of ourselves literally can't see. The light side is (11:35) like, it's like almost like we're walking around with blinders on, and when we open ourselves to (11:40) the dark, there suddenly becomes so much more possible. Go ahead, Leslie. (11:47) CB Oh, I was just going to add the, what you were mentioning about when we allow ourselves to be (11:54) seen in parts that we are in disapproval of, that's such a like stepping toward, that is exactly what
(12:01) we're talking about. It's allowing ourselves to start stepping into that frame where it's like, (12:05) oh, if I can let this be seen, maybe it's not as bad as I thought, so to speak. (12:11) LS And maybe I'm not as bad as I thought, I think. (12:14) CB Exactly. And, you know, the next, but we kind of like see that as like a threshold entry point, (12:20) you know what I mean? Kind of like starting to integrate, and our work of like going towards
(12:25) the dark is actually not just being seen in that, although sometimes that's all that's needed (12:30) for us to fully embrace these parts, but to also like really see in those parts what the actual (12:39) gifts are that aren't even necessarily new. They're already happening. We're just not allowed (12:44) to let them in because, you know, for the part of me that's like a judgmental, for example, (12:51) that judges others. It's like, oh, that part's terrible. I can't, you know, whenever that one
(12:55) part comes up, I try to, and what it causes is a split between me and my judgments and my opinions (13:01) because it's not allowed to be expressed. But when I can actually really give myself to the (13:06) judgments and embody those parts, and this is the part that gets really tricky or interesting (13:12) with the work, is we can do that and get lost in it. We can lose ourselves in the part, (13:18) but if we can actually go in and see it, say, when we're talking about the judgmental part right now,
(13:22) there's many different parts here. If we can actually go in and be in that judgmental part (13:26) while we're still connected to the rest of us who's still navigating our own consent with how (13:34) that part is and what we're able to like, like, like actually like witnessing what's going on (13:38) there, then we can start to really step into like, wow, there's so much more here. There's not just (13:43) judgments. There's discernment. There's not just, there's not just opinions, but there's feelings
(13:50) that are really important related to my needs that I would need to address in order to actually (13:55) build and create the life I want or have this relationship go in a way that's really good for (13:59) both of us or all of those things. But all that is locked away if I'm not allowed to express my (14:06) judgments or my judgments are seen as something bad or negative. Right. So I hear you like when
(14:11) you can hold the observer part of you and you know, whatever it is that is that dark for you, (14:19) then you can get the gifts from it. And, um, to see yourself in a way, (14:27) but see yourself, but from a place of, of like, there's like detachment and being in it at the (14:35) same time. Yeah. Yeah. And, and one of the things that we've really found, you know, that that's (14:42) amazing. This really was what was birthed through, like from our very first night together through
(14:46) our connection with each other was realizing in light work, we can work on something for a really (14:54) long time. And, and, you know, most of your listeners may have had this experience. I (14:57) imagine because we're all, if we're, you know, spiritually oriented people or, or personal (15:01) growth oriented people, we tend to have a lot of introspection and a lot of desire to grow and (15:08) learn. And there can be the awareness of certain patterns in ourselves. And we're like, I want to,
(15:13) I want to work on this and maybe we've been working on it for 10, 20 years, you know, (15:19) and, and it moves the needle progress, but it's kind of this chipping away at it bit by bit. And, (15:26) and what we were stunned to find when we came together and gave ourselves over fully to the (15:31) dark side of, of how to play with all of this was, and, and granted, we would give ourselves
(15:36) over fully to the dark side, held in a framework of a lot of light background, right? There is a (15:40) lot about what we were doing that was very intentional, very, very safe, very well held, (15:44) but also really pushing out into the dark edges. And we were stunned to find that some of those (15:50) patterns that we had been working on so hard for so long, just, it's like they evaporated. Like (15:55) they just moved, changed so quickly. You know, that's what Leslie was speaking to. It's a kind
(16:00) of like, it sounds like we've been knocking on a door for a really long time. And then all of a (16:04) sudden we just transported to the other side of the door and we were the ones that opened it. (16:07) And so it doesn't always happen that way with dark work. You don't always wind up at the same (16:13) place you were headed with the light work. Sometimes you wind up somewhere totally different. (16:17) You have to go in with an open mind, right? And that's, that's really the scary part
(16:21) because your identity before going in may not agree with where you are. Potential outcomes. (16:29) I know sometimes, Oh, Oh, just to wrap up, it does sometimes wind you up at the same place (16:34) you were trying to get to with the light work, only it winds you up there much faster. (16:40) But so I know a lot of people that I've worked with, well, like being really angry or kind of (16:47) letting themselves go to that place feels very scary. Like if they go in there, they'll never
(16:51) get out. Right. Or sadness, depression. Like if they go into their depression, they'll be stuck (16:57) there forever. And that's the fear, the fear voice talking. So I'm curious, like for you guys, (17:03) if you, that, that must be something that you've dealt with many times with your clients. (17:09) Yeah, it's the, the challenge is that there are parts of our self that are having an experience (17:17) that isn't even necessarily connected to a current moment, present moment, or a present
(17:22) moment has triggered a whole network of beliefs and thoughts, a whole identity of self that (17:30) we aren't current. Like, like the, the, the difference between me and in this current (17:35) moment, who I think of as myself and this part is, can sometimes be vast. And so once I go in, (17:41) I lose all sense of who I am and suddenly be in a world where everything sucks or all like, I'm (17:47) like the world is depressing or my rage is coming out and there's just like endless, endless rage.
(17:52) Or I'll hurt someone because I'll, I'll lose my, my monitor. That's going to keep the brakes on (17:57) where I need it. And, and all of those things are viable concerns. Like you actually, it is, (18:03) it is true. You, you, you, you, you can, you can go in and really cycle in these places and get (18:10) stuck in them. And so oftentimes because of that, we have these experiences of experiencing and just (18:14) be like, okay, let's not, let's just keep, let's just keep going this way. And, and, and the only
(18:23) trouble with that is, is until we come into a consensual relationship with that part of (18:28) ourself, that's having that experience, which by the way, I think is worth doing is worth, (18:33) you know, it's kind of like, we, we have these kids, we have these children, these baby, (18:37) we have like small parts who are locked away in closets and dungeons and we're abandoned or (18:43) whatever, all, all going on inside of us. And in the light, it's like the, what it's like,
(18:49) doesn't feel good. So let's avoid it. But then, but then what that creates is us actually avoiding (18:55) parts of ourselves that have real needs. And that's actually really worth our time, (19:00) bringing those parts back out of there. And, and so like the trick is how, how do we create the (19:08) experience where we can stay conscious when you stay, stay with our present moment awareness as (19:14) we go in. And for us, the way our approach to that is through embodiment, through embodiment
(19:21) practices. Like in other words, like when it's just happening in our head, which our head is (19:26) always the set of ideas, conditions, notions about what different sensations mean. When I feel that (19:33) sensation, it means that the world is over and we're all going to die. So, ah, right? Like that's, (19:39) it's just auto set up. The brain is, is somewhat like that. It's pretty inflexible. It's like, (19:45) it is very flexible with new information, but the old information just stays
(19:49) true until we update it. And so that these sensations that come up as we approach, (19:54) it's like, how do we actually bring, bring more into, so our brains can update, update through (19:59) it. And the embodiment is a big part of that. And the methods through embodiment are through (20:06) really being in a relational practice with others or being in a full expressed embodiment (20:12) of these feelings through you. Is that part of it? Like in your body or, um, exactly making movement
(20:20) or so if it was with another person, what might that look like? And with another person, that's (20:26) the, that's kind of like really what we designed these containers around is like, how do we play (20:30) out these parts together so that we can like fully embody them in a relational sense. And, (20:38) and that's, that's a topic, like, that's kind of like what we design our workshops around, (20:42) like how to, how to do that because it's so potent when we, you know, it's really potent
(20:46) when we can embody these parts ourselves, but we can actually bring it into a relational reality (20:52) with someone else. It provides so much more information about what this part is like and (20:57) how this part might be able to like this, the gifts of this part, how it might actually come (21:01) into contact and play. Because the truth is we're always in this kind of play all the time. (21:07) Even if we have our blinders up around it, if something triggers or suddenly we're in a state
(21:12) we're not used to, then we, we, we try to manage things. We try to manage what's going on, but (21:17) all of that slips out the side. It's like, if, if anyone's ever had the experience of your, (21:21) of your listeners of like, you think something, no one can see a thing that you're hiding, but (21:27) then you start to realize as you start to admit it and should reveal it, that like all the people (21:31) around, they just didn't have the same opinion about it that you did. And so they didn't even
(21:38) bring it up because it was either, it wasn't a problem or it wasn't nearly, it wasn't the same (21:42) kind of issue is that I was having it with myself. And so like when we can bring it into like full (21:49) embodiment, relational reality, we can start to have that information. But then the trick is how (21:53) to do that consensually first with ourselves. And when I say consensually, what I mean is like (21:59) all parts of me on board, or at least willing to go through to, to enter this experience and
(22:06) all parts of you, if we're doing it together, at least willing to go and have this experience. (22:11) And so we utilize different tools, um, to help create that consent. (22:16) Mm-hmm. So when you work with someone with another person, is it someone you know, (22:22) or is it, could it be anybody in your workshops? So we, we have many different offerings, which we, (22:29) we can get into at some point. We have, we do in-person work with, with private clients and,
(22:35) and we do group workshops where we, you know, we're bringing people together. And in the group (22:39) workshops, we're really teaching people to do these forms of play with each other. Whereas in (22:44) our private work, we're working directly with the clients. Uh, but anybody can do it. And we have, (22:50) you know, we w we've learned over the years of sort of like different, different, uh, you know, (22:55) some people would, we want to start a little more at the, at the shallow end of the pool and go in
(22:59) one step at a time. And some people are ready to dive right into the deep ends. Everybody's just (23:03) at different places in their journey. Uh, but one of the things, you know, we mentioned light and (23:09) dark, and we actually really find both to be incredibly important where we don't have a bias (23:14) towards one or the other, being able to have the muscles of both light work and dark work are so (23:19) valuable and so important. And we mix both into our work. And we think that ultimately
(23:24) the ideal human is one that has access to both of those pathways. And then we can therefore be at (23:29) choice in any given moment. You know, sometimes we, we want to really work things through the (23:35) move towards creating the kind of world we want to see. And sometimes like, wow, the world doesn't (23:40) look how we want to see it. So we want to be able to embrace what's here and to actually really have
(23:45) both of those skill sets developed is, is the goal of our work. And so in our workshops and whatnot, (23:51) kind of depending on where people are coming in, we actually have two different tracks of (23:54) workshops. One is for advanced practitioners who may maybe have never done our work, but, (23:58) but our, you know, facilitators and space holders who've already been on a really, (24:03) lengthy and rigorous personal growth journey of their own, they're ready for the deep end of the
(24:07) pool. And so we go more heavy on the dark work, although we always still weave in some light work. (24:12) Whereas in our other track, late dark foundations, which is for anybody coming in at any point in (24:17) their journey, we weave in more of the light work, even as we go into the dark as well, (24:21) because sometimes, you know, it's like the light work is, is sort of the nest that holds us to feel
(24:26) safe enough to be able to expand into those dark territories and get the gifts of all of that. (24:32) There's one more thing I wanted to say about the, how we do it in our workshops, which is, (24:36) um, we have, we have sort of two different primary pathways that we help people explore (24:42) through. One of them involves a lot of play and like humor and kind of being over the top with (24:49) these things. We have a system of what we call dark archetypes, which are fondly known as the
(24:54) darkotypes. And there are 10 core archetypes that we've developed over the years. We've developed (24:59) a map of them. We have like so much to say about them. It's a whole infinite world of amazing (25:04) information. So some examples of, we were talking about judgment earlier. So there's one called the (25:07) arrogant distainer. Uh, there's one called the violent destroyer, you know, which is that like (25:13) impulsive rage anger part of us. Uh, there's one called the unfeeling disconnector, which is the
(25:18) part of us that's just like totally checked out, not present. Uh, there's one called the needy (25:23) wretch, which is that part of us that just so desperately needs and wants approval and love. (25:28) And that one is actually like the most important archetype of all, spoiler alert. Um, and, and so (25:34) we all have her, there's one called the lying hider, which tries to pretend she doesn't exist (25:41) and, or any of those other ones don't exist. Um, and so we do, we do a lot of play with those,
(25:48) like acting them out, kind of bringing them out over the top because oftentimes it's like, (25:52) Oh, I'm needy. I'm not supposed to be needy. So maybe the most I can let it out as like, (25:57) Hey, I could, uh, maybe let me find the NVC language for how I could really use your help (26:01) with this thing. But like, if we only get to there, we, the energy just stays stuck. Whereas (26:08) if we can let ourselves play in an over the top way where we're like, I just need your love, please.
(26:12) Like I would do anything. I'm begging you to like, please, how could I possibly shape myself (26:17) to make it so that you love me? And we're like rolling on the floor, begging for love. (26:21) And all of a sudden the whole room is laughing. And all of a sudden, each of us that have that (26:25) wretched inside that don't give it permission can look around the room and be like, Oh, this (26:30) actually literally exists in everybody. And Oh my gosh, we can laugh at it. And Oh my gosh,
(26:35) somehow in the process, something in my heart got touched really deeply. And I can feel that (26:39) I actually want to honor this part of me that has these needs and has been whispering to me my whole (26:44) life about what I need, even as I've been trying to kind of silence it. So there's many ways and (26:49) there's ways to play with each and every one of these, even, even ones as extreme as the violent (26:53) destroyer, where we can really begin to, to access humor and play, and also really tap into
(26:59) the gifts and the wisdom that these parts are holding for us, which are like so extensive, (27:04) the gifts and the wisdom that they each bring. And, and I just want to add to that, the, the (27:09) power, a bit like the, the key with this work is it can be really scary, especially if there's (27:14) parts that were like, Ooh, I there's trauma. I've been hurt there. Uh, like we actually, (27:18) this work is designed to actually go into the like scary, scary,
(27:22) but sometimes just the neediness can be like the scariest thing for people. (27:27) And, and we've gotten so many messages that like, you know, if you're too needy, (27:32) no one's going to want you. At least that's what I, that's the message. (27:36) And the power of what's, we start to come to approval. One of the main gifts that starts (27:40) to happen when we start, Tony mentioned it, we see it everywhere. You start to realize that (27:44) everybody's a needy wrench. Everybody's everybody wants connections so bad. And when I'm,
(27:48) the more in touch with that I am in myself, the more easily I can see in others. And the more (27:53) easily I can see the strategies that they're employing to try to get their needs met, (27:57) which sometimes those strategies might seem aggressive or disconnected or all kinds of (28:03) things towards me. But when I can see the underlying reality of it, I suddenly can like (28:07) come into play much more with way more consent and way more power. Like I can actually address
(28:14) what the underlying needs are. So for leaders and for anyone, it's like we were more trapped (28:18) and stuck trying to understand why people are acting the way they are or what they would need (28:22) in order to move forward or whatever. Getting in touch with our own darkness is so potent for that. (28:28) And that's why we, you know, but that is the, the, the, the amplification where we can do that in (28:32) relationship with others too. We can really start to really give evidence to ourself because we can
(28:37) talk about these ideas, like everything we're naming, we can name it, but until you have the, (28:42) that's the core of this work until you have the somatic experiencing the reality that like, (28:48) Oh, actually my needy wretch is awesome. And I love it. And it's a part of me and it's an (28:53) essential part of me. And I'm so grateful every time it pipes up to show me what I need. And, (28:59) you know, when I can actually have that experience, I can literally change my relationship
(29:02) with every single person in my life. And that, that that's the power. And, and, and, and (29:10) Tony was talking about it as in terms of life is kind of playful humor. Life is play. Like we're (29:16) here to play, like even the, even the dark, scary is where it's all on some level play. (29:21) And that can really bring levity and lightness and open heartedness. And how do we play with (29:27) these things consensually and easefully? But the other, the other direction of this work we call
(29:34) dark awakening, which is like when we really like, especially for those spots where we're (29:40) really like, well, I do not want to go there. I don't want to be in there and bringing light (29:45) heartedness feels very difficult because there's just too much danger risk. So what are the, (29:51) yeah. What are the tools? What is needed? What is like how to, and we use a variety of different (29:56) tools for actually how to like start to move in that direction so that you can actually have a
(30:01) full embodied experience of those parts. And the cool thing is the darker spot. In other words, (30:08) the more disapproval judgment and fear we've put on a part of ourselves and the longer we've done (30:14) it, the more potent it's like a volcano, you know, ready to come up, the more potent that part holds (30:22) a more kind of essential energies of ourselves that we, we have less, the least amount of (30:27) experience with because it's been stored away in this pocket. And so we call it dark awakening
(30:31) because we're literally like awakening to this part of ourselves with a whole host of new desires, (30:39) new possibilities, new ideas. And, and like the, the biggest thing is no longer needing to resist (30:46) all the energy that we put into our lives to try to resist who we might be or who we might become. (30:54) Yeah, that is so much energy that almost all of us use to try and suppress parts of ourselves. (31:01) So I can see that once you're actually in alignment or acceptance or joy of it, even
(31:08) it's like, Oh, now the energy is free to do other things. (31:12) Yeah. Yeah, exactly. A lot of life force gets, gets drained into self management. (31:19) I don't know that life force can do so many amazing things if we free it up a little bit. (31:25) Yeah. And the other, the other aspect of dark awakening is so powerful is when we have that (31:31) experience for it. So many of your listeners may have actually had this experience before,
(31:34) when you make that kind of transition to realize this part of yourself is that you've held as bad (31:39) or wrong or whatever is actually, you really take in like all of its gifts and all of its (31:45) possibilities. We suddenly like, like the transition of that experience helps open us (31:53) up to the world where, Oh, what about all these other things that we hold as bad? What about all (31:59) these other things that we say, Oh, there's something wrong with these people or these
(32:04) parts or these communities or these ideas or whatever. And where we can start to explore (32:11) those things with a more open heart and more trust in ourselves to stay in consent with who (32:17) we are and what our values are, but also be open to being transformed and changed and actually able (32:22) to listen. And so like, when we have these transformative experiences in ourselves, (32:26) it makes us so much more able to engage the world. Um, when we're, you know, when we're,
(32:32) we're in the process of making things bad and making other people bad and communities about, (32:36) it's a very scary world. Many of us live in it. Parts of me still live in it. And it's, (32:41) when I get inside of that, it's such a scary world, but we can actually start to see like, (32:46) Oh, the foundations of all of these different identities, all of these different things (32:50) and start to understand like, Oh, everybody's going for love.
(32:56) Even, even when they look like they're going for the opposite. And it's hard to see that until you (33:00) have that experience, that somatic experience, like, why would that part of me want love? (33:05) That part of me just wants to hurt people or just wants to die or just wants like, (33:09) there's no love there, but when we can actually get inside and bring the love there (33:13) and, or really find the love that's there. And that's one of the fundamentally best parts of
(33:18) this to me is not just going in and loving these parts, but going in and seeing how these parts (33:23) have always been loving us and always are everything they're doing. Even if it's not (33:29) the right strategy, even if it was a bad, it's not exactly the way you would have done it, (33:33) it's exactly the opposite of the way you would have done it. The attempt, (33:37) the underlying intention of all of our parts is to love us as best as we can.
(33:43) That's just so beautiful. I just even want to like pause for that. And just for a second, (33:47) cause like, wow, to think about how every part of us as skilled or unskilled as it may be, (33:55) it's really there to love us. I don't know if I've thought about it in exactly those terms before. (34:01) That's really beautiful. Do you have, and I don't know if you want to go down this route, (34:07) so if you don't, it's okay. But I feel like right now there's a lot of fear about the world,
(34:13) the politics, the, you know, just the world in general. And I'm wondering, you know, if you (34:20) have anything like words of wisdom for people who are having that anxiety or feeling like (34:25) it's a scary place out there. Yeah. Yeah. Many words. You know, I think, (34:36) I think first, first of all, it's always important to be gentle with yourself when things are scary, (34:41) like to actually give yourself the time for that. And again, it comes back to that needy wretch,
(34:45) right? The needy wretch is the part of us that gets scared. And it's like, I want a world that (34:50) is soft and loving where people care for each other and there's not meanness and there's not (34:55) violence. And I want to know that I'm safe and held. And in moments where we feel like the world (35:01) is not reflecting that back to us, the most important thing we can do is hold our own needy (35:05) wretch. And the needy wretch really represents our inner child. It represents like this,
(35:10) the tender young part inside of us that is scared. And sometimes it can be very helpful (35:14) to actually envision it as like a child outside of you. Like if you, if you see yourself as a (35:20) small child and see that part of you that, that is so scared and hurting, if you, when it's just (35:26) inside, like, it's like, well, I'm not supposed to be this. I, I, I should be, you know, I have
(35:30) work to do. I'm not going to stop and feel this. But if it's like, wait, look at like, pull that (35:34) child out of you for a minute and see that like scared three or four year old crying in front of (35:39) you. Of course, the instinct is going to be to pick them up and hold them. And so like, I, we (35:44) recommend this in, in, in some of our work. And I, and it's a practice that I've done that I find
(35:48) deeply helpful, which is to literally even spend like three or four minutes a day, either when you (35:53) first wake up or before you go to bed to as a practice of holding your inner needy wretch to (35:59) like, see it as a child and hold it and be like, yeah, no, things are really scary right now. (36:03) And I've got you, I've got you. I love you. Even if the world isn't reflecting back your beauty,
(36:09) even if the world is a scary place, like I'm with you, I'm here. I love you. And then to let (36:15) ourselves also receive that. And that's an important part, right? Cause we're in like, (36:18) we're in what we call the witness self there, which is, which is the like, or I'm sorry, (36:22) the wisdom self. It's like the, the part of us that's wise, that knows how to, how to hold the (36:26) scared child. But it's important then to also put our awareness into that child while it's in our
(36:32) arms and let ourselves receive those words of love. Exactly. Exactly. So you can kind of pull (36:38) your attention back and forth between the wisdom side of you and the scared child and just doing (36:44) that for a few minutes a day, even for like a month as a regular practice, it can radically (36:49) transform your, your personal relationships and your sense of self. And it can also really (36:54) transform that sense of fear in the world because it's like, like in those moments, like, oh, right.
(36:59) There, there is somebody here with me, even if it's me, you know? And of course, if we have (37:05) practices of connection to source or nature or any of those, those can be deeply nourishing as well. (37:11) But that's, that's a light, that's a light work answer, which isn't the whole picture, (37:15) but that's a light work answer. Yeah. And I'll just add to that for a moment, (37:21) just to realize that like our young selves, as we're learning language and learning about the
(37:26) world encounter, terrifying things that we have no idea how to process, unless we've been raised (37:34) in a really integral community that holds us through every kind of initiation we go through. (37:40) Most of us haven't had that experience. And so we had to figure it out on our own. And the main (37:45) way we figured that out is to create identities, identities of those things are bad. Those things (37:50) are wrong. Those things are scary. This is what I believe is the only way I can save myself.
(37:55) Right. So there's all of this constructed over. So as we go towards those young parts and start (37:59) to love them, we start to open up new possibilities around our kind of fixed identities that we were, (38:06) we've kind of developed, which is like so powerful because even those fixed ideas and (38:11) identities are there, those protectors parts of ourselves are there to make reality safer. (38:16) They actually do it by entrenching the idea that reality is not safe. And therefore I must keep
(38:24) doing that. And so that, that access point, but the, and, and just to speak to the dark approach (38:29) of in the world, like when you look at an enemy or you look at someone who you see as causing a (38:35) lot of harm or a system or a country or whatever it is, those all contain, when we look out and (38:43) judge, when we find ourselves judging someone else, it's very exciting from a shadow perspective, (38:47) because now we're looking at a part of ourselves that we are using this person to judge.
(38:54) Doesn't mean, it doesn't mean that our evaluation of the behavior or that we agree or condone it (39:01) by any means, but it, but the behavior and whatever it is that has us judging the other (39:07) person can, it gives us a seed of how to start looking within to find those parts of ourselves (39:13) that we are in disapproval of. So if you have, there's a political leader, you're, you're just (39:17) like, oh, I cannot stand that person. That's juicy terrain from a shadow work perspective,
(39:23) because now if we can go in and find that part of ourselves, that is that way that sees the world (39:29) for those lenses or, or whatever it is and start to actually get inside of it and start to embody (39:34) and see its gifts and see what, what, how it's trying to love us. When we can really see that, (39:41) then we can start to see how they are trying to love them and how they are trying to love the
(39:45) world in the best way they know how. And once we can get with that, because, you know, outside of, (39:50) if we just go for the light, we just will continue to encounter polarities. Like, no, that's the (39:56) wrong way to do it. Nope. And then we just push back and forth. And that's so much of what we're (40:00) seeing in the world is strong back and forth of like the polarity, but when we can actually get
(40:07) inside of the core arising needs and desires of the powerful of the people that we've held as (40:13) powerful, which by the way, it's us holding them as powerful. Right. And that's the other cool (40:18) thing about shadow works. You get inside of you start to see how you've generated the power field. (40:23) Right. Like just because somebody is in the top, there's a president or top leader doesn't, you (40:29) know, like in some ways that obviously they have systemic power, but we add to that through our
(40:34) perspectives, through our, through our limitations, our ideas and our fears, we add to that. (40:39) And through obsessing over them. (40:39) And through obsessing over them or whatever it is. (40:41) We're sending our energy to it, in fact. (40:44) Exactly. Exactly. And, and, but, but when we can actually meet them and see them as human, (40:49) see their humanity, see what's underlying, like, especially in the parts that we judge, (40:54) then we can actually start to like, actually meet them and see them and see what,
(40:59) see the whole picture, right. Of what's going on. And if you're trying to, if you're trying to, (41:06) if you're trying to get someone to see your perspective and move towards in the direction (41:10) you want to, the best way to do that is through deeply understanding their motivations and what (41:15) they're up to and why they're doing it. (41:18) And we may not all have access to the ear of, of, you know, politicians in high places of power,
(41:23) but we may have access to the ear of family members that have different political views than (41:28) us or neighbors that we don't talk to because they had a sign up for the other side or whatever. (41:34) And the more that we can come into seeing them as humans and seeing like, oh yeah, (41:39) we're actually all out to try to create a better world. We have really different (41:44) ideas of how to get there, but I see your humanity. I see the same shadows in myself
(41:49) that I see in you. I see that there is a core of love in here that is trying to create a better (41:54) world through different means. Then we can have those conversations and we can be much more (42:00) effective than when we're alienating people or holding them at arm's length or just running (42:04) scared from them. And it always seems like the scarier option, like it's always easier to avoid (42:10) or just cut things out or not do not engage. And that seems to be a way of like avoiding the fear,
(42:16) avoiding the like intensity of whatever parts of ourselves or parts of them we might encounter, (42:22) but ultimately it just keeps it going. So it's like by opening, by turning towards, by, (42:28) by like, like having that conversation with our neighbor or whatever it is that has us actually (42:33) turning towards it, even though it's the scarier move, just like all shadow work, (42:38) what it then turns into on the other side is a safer world, a world where we have better
(42:43) understanding. We're no longer being like, Oh, that's a bad person who's not safe. And I should (42:47) stay away from, Oh, that person still has views I don't agree with, but I at least understand where (42:52) they're coming from. And I have other formats of other places of connection with them. And I'm (42:58) starting to understand better where they're coming from, or they might even change you. (43:02) They might actually have something that you've been needing or wanting to hear, to understand
(43:07) about the world. And that's like the other cool thing about shadow work is we might actually grow (43:11) from other perspectives, which doesn't necessarily mean that your politics will change, but your, (43:17) but your capacity to love the world and to love yourself and to love your neighbors and your (43:23) community may change. And that's, and, and the scary thing is your politics might change too. (43:29) You got to go for the dark, got to go with the dark mostly. Absolutely. Yeah.
(43:34) But, but, you know, I think it's, it's always great to hold the changes possible on, (43:39) on any side, right. But it is, I mean, the irony I am totally seeing, which is like, (43:45) you know, I'm judging people for, because they hold other people as different, which of course (43:49) is me holding someone as different as I'm judging them. So, you know, you could, you can see how (43:55) easily this can turn into a mirror, like a mirror to look into myself. Exactly. Yeah. It's like
(44:06) different, different flavors, but same game. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I just will add, you know, (44:12) I think this has already come through and everything we've been saying, but just, just to (44:15) speak to it directly that in our work, the point of everything that we're doing, the big why behind (44:20) it all is love. And it's really, how do we, how do we create a world of more love? And, you know, (44:25) I think a lot of your listeners probably have a, are on a spiritual path. And so in that broader
(44:32) sort of spiritual sense, there, there may be places where we can be in touch with everything (44:36) already is love. And so it's expanding our capacity to feel that and be with that. But then (44:42) for the parts of ourselves, you know, that's the dark work perspective. And then for the parts of (44:45) us that are like, yeah, but that's not love when these like scary, horrible things are happening (44:49) in the world. Then this work is also from the light side. Like, how do we create more love?
(44:54) How do we bring more love into the world? How do we actually make this a world of more love, (44:58) more consent, more connection, more care. And for us, that really starts by bringing the love to (45:04) the unloved places. It's like the most direct, powerful, potent transformation we can find (45:08) both at the personal level and at the societal level. Let's bring love to the places that are (45:14) hardest to love. And if we can really love those, when those open, like what, what can't we do?
(45:20) You know, what, what can't we transform? What can't we touch? If we can love the hardest spots, (45:25) then the easy spots are a piece of cake. So that's really what we're up to. (45:29) Right. And, and it is, you know, if the outer is reflecting the inner, then the more we are (45:35) enamored with our own inner in all of its aspects, the more we can experience the (45:40) possibilities, the beauty, even in there, even in the dark places, we can still see the beauty
(45:45) on the outside. If we can see it on the inside. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, that's one (45:52) of my favorite things is about the, about going towards the dark and turning towards it is what (46:00) we do, what we're actually reinforcing there. Cause it, the belief, the idea is if I go there, (46:06) I will become bad. I will become the bad thing I'm afraid of. Right. But when we allow ourselves (46:11) to go there and go through the full journey of integration with that part of ourselves,
(46:17) we, it's just like the way I like to think that we just jumped off a cliff. (46:21) We just jumped off a scare, like a level of something that was really scary. And we do that (46:26) enough times becomes easier and easier. We're able to go higher or whatever. We're like the (46:31) we're able to know what the risk level is better and better and like actually trust ourselves in (46:37) those places and then actually feel safe. So, so then when we're in a situation with our child or
(46:43) with a loved one and they're going through something, we've already jumped that. And we (46:48) know how scary it can be. And we also know how powerful it can be on the other side. And so we (46:55) become, instead of joining them or becoming reactive to whatever they're going through, (47:00) we can join by joining them. I mean, joining them in the story that they're not okay. (47:04) And the fear of the thing, right? (47:05) Yeah. That they shouldn't divide part of themselves. (47:08) Don't do that. Right.
(47:09) Yeah. Or have an enemy or whatever, instead of joining in that story, we can actually like (47:14) see, start to really see what's involved, what's needed to build consent, help them build consent (47:20) in their system for how to go through, how to, how to see the other side of that, as opposed to, (47:27) you know, that like, like every time we go through that journey and we start to see that (47:31) our core self, not the parts that we've not, not the frames we believed on ourselves, but our core
(47:38) self is really, really good. Like better than anything we ever parts of ourselves ever imagined. (47:46) It can go into these dark, dark places and find love and feel the love of each one of those parts. (47:54) That's super powerful because I think so many people, maybe most people, maybe all people, (48:00) like do feel like there's something intrinsically wrong with me or dark with me or bad with me, (48:06) original sin, whatever it is. And to actually go to those places and discover, Oh, actually,
(48:12) that's a story that I bought into, but, but underneath that is love. Like that's a powerful (48:20) transformation. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. It's like, there's something wrong with me. Yeah. (48:26) The story that there's something wrong, but that story served a purpose and helped us navigate (48:35) in a world that wasn't safe. And so how do we get all the way through the other side? (48:39) We can't just, we don't, we can't just drop that story for parts of ourselves. It's like,
(48:44) how do we, you know, how do we, how do we actually get through that? And that's why we do what we're (48:48) up to to like, how to like, what are the tools? What are the best tools available that help us (48:54) really walk through that ordeal into who we really are? Yeah. I can, I can just see the freedom, (49:03) the freedom that's on the other side. All right. I just want to ask a few more things. And so one
(49:11) is, I don't know if there's just a short, but a specific story that you would be that you can (49:16) think of to share about maybe a client, obviously no names, but just like, what is the transformation (49:22) that you've seen in someone or, you know, or could be with yourself, but what is a story that (49:28) could just give listeners a vision of what would it be like to do work with you? What's on the
(49:33) other side of that? There's so many, so many, the one that's popping up for me is, is we were (49:43) working with someone who really had a lot of like a strong experience of feeling disappointed by (49:53) life and disappointed by everything that they had tried to do. Yeah. Everything that they had, (49:59) they had attempted was all pretty disappointing. And even coming into, we were working with her (50:05) and our deepest experience, the light dark experience, which was like a three day deep
(50:09) dive, direct play with you and your intentions. It's a one-on-one experience, but she was (50:17) moving towards that. And, and, and even along the way, it was like, I can already see I'm going to (50:23) be disappointed. You know what I mean? And, and like, from our, from our, from, from our lens, (50:30) that's like, Oh, that part of you just loves that just loving how that part's just loving her. (50:35) Like it's like keeping her from feeling the deeper, you know, the deeper grief and
(50:42) disappointment of that. And the feeling that like, you know, all the different things that (50:45) whatever was there underneath. And as when she went through the experience itself and like really (50:53) came in with like, you know, one of the things that this part of herself, part of her served (50:58) her for was, was to keep everything like totally. Uh, like real, like, I'm not gonna, (51:05) you're like, you can't inspire me. Yeah. It's gotta be like, it's gotta be like very real.
(51:11) It's gotta be fully felt, but that actually ended up really serving her so that every revelation (51:17) that she had was, was so real and so embodied and like, not, you know, not going for any kind of (51:26) shiny thing that would, would take her away from it and really starting to see (51:31) how, like how much this part of herself who feared disappointment really was, was loving her. (51:36) And the way we did that was, I guess this is like a bigger experience naming it, but just like lots
(51:43) and lots of different kinds of embodiment of like tapping in and starting to touch on (51:47) these things. Oh, that disappointment. And then like how to actually speak up for your needs, (51:52) how to actually identify what your needs are and, and like, and name them and then come back (51:58) into play in a new way in that. And so, uh, you know, all, cause all of these parts, even though (52:04) they feel like whole reality, they're just plays of our, of ourselves. And so that, that, that was,
(52:10) that was one of them that, that was really transformed her life, you know, to, to really (52:16) like, Oh, this part of me, that's been like kind of a curse around. Like my whole life is now like (52:24) real, like she trusts it so deeply, like, ah, it's like really, it's like a no BS, you know, (52:31) it's like only the real thing, but how real she is, you know, able to do like, it was just seeing
(52:37) like how much she used that to turn it into a real gift for herself and her life. (52:42) That's a, that's a great example. Thank you. That's perfect. Well, I know that, um, you know, (52:48) there may be listeners who want to work with you guys cause you're doing some exciting work, um, (52:54) transformational, do you transformational work? So what's the best way to get in touch with you (52:58) or what are kind of some of the things that you're offering? Yeah. Yeah. So the, the easiest
(53:03) place to find us is online. The website is lightdarkinstitute.com. You may have to put the, (53:09) you know, HTTPS, all that WW, but it's lightdarkinstitute.com, uh, and just light, (53:16) dark, not light and dark. And sometimes people get confused. If you just Google light dark (53:20) institute, you'll find us. Uh, and we have a whole bunch of different offerings. There are a lot of (53:25) places for people to plug in. We typically do a lot of in-person courses. We also do some online.
(53:31) We actually just finished our non, um, our nine week online course. We may not offer another (53:36) round until 2027, but if you're, you know, further away and can't come for a live workshop, (53:40) that's a great one to keep an eye out for. It's called playing with archetypes and it's nine (53:44) weeks devoted to these 10 core archetypes. It's a super, super potent dive into getting to know (53:49) them and what their gifts are. And then in our live workshops, as I mentioned, we have those
(53:53) two different tracks. Light dark foundations is designed for anybody to come in no matter where (53:57) you're at in your personal journey. And then advanced dark play is the one that's designed for (54:03) facilitators, space holders, people who've already been doing deep spiritual and personal (54:07) work for many years and are ready for a faster paced dive into the shadows. (54:11) So either of those are entry points for light dark work. You don't have to have done our work before
(54:15) to attend either of those, but they're designed for different audiences of where people are, (54:20) where people are coming in from, um, light, dark foundations. We have a couple, a couple of those (54:25) workshops coming up this summer. We have one in July. They're both in the Bay area. Uh, we have (54:30) one in July, which is exclusively for the BIPOC community. So exclusively for people who identify (54:35) as black, indigenous, or people of color. So that's really exciting, uh, coming up in late
(54:41) July. And then we have another one in August that's in the Bay area and that one's open to (54:45) anybody. And then in August in Boulder, Colorado, we have a, uh, an advanced dark play. So that's (54:52) the one that's for, for facilitators and people ready to dive in the deep end. Uh, all of those (54:57) are on the website. We're also doing a training program this year. So if anybody's like, Oh my (55:01) God, this is exactly the thing I want it. You need to take one of those in-person workshops as a
(55:07) prerequisite. So if you think that you might be drawn to go on a deep journey with this, (55:11) get to one of those in-person workshops, those are the last few before the training program starts. (55:16) And then we do individual work with, with clients as well. I do one-on-one coaching, (55:22) regular coaching and people to help them with both like shadow integration and how to turn (55:27) their lives over and, and really like use their lives as ways of deepening into, you know, their
(55:33) wholeness and, and, and how to empower their life with it. And in particular with, for, for folks (55:39) who are like creating new things in the world to like, um, new, new, new work, new healing arts, (55:45) new work in the world. Like I'm, I really enjoy supporting people in that. Also, I work with (55:50) how to bring play and, uh, uh, uh, uh, different news, these tools in, in, uh, in, in your (55:58) partnership to, to both like explore yourselves and grow your relationship.
(56:04) Fantastic. So a lot of different ways that people can work with you and, and your website will be, (56:08) of course, on the, uh, show notes and, um, and Tony and Leslie have agreed to offer a discount (56:15) code. So check the show notes because you get a little discount on one of their programs. (56:19) And so, um, and thank you so much, both of you. This was a wonderful experience, (56:25) certainly for me, and I hope for all the listeners, very inspiring. And so as we wrap
(56:31) up, I don't know if there's like one last message you want to, to give out to the listeners before (56:36) we, before we go. Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having us and thank you to (56:42) everybody who listened. Um, I think one thing that I would just want to say is, you know, (56:47) we all have shadows, the, these parts that we don't feel good about. It may be different for (56:54) each person, what, you know, what the like primary spots are, but actually there's a lot
(56:58) of overlap. And so you're not alone in any ways that you feel like bad about certain parts of (57:03) yourself. You're not alone in having that at all. And, and it's actually not bad. It doesn't mean (57:11) that you're a bad person. It doesn't mean that you're a failure. It's just patterns that we, (57:15) that we learned at different points in our lives, especially growing up that worked to (57:20) keep us safe at that point, and maybe aren't as relevant now, but you know, in the light,
(57:25) we can learn how to, how to change them and how to improve. But if you have the capacity at all, (57:30) to even just a little bit, like begin to open towards what if I could get curious about this (57:35) part of me? What if I could extend love in this direction and hear what it's trying to teach me, (57:40) what it's trying to tell me there is there, there there's gifts in these, even that part, (57:45) even whatever you're like, Oh, but, but not that there's gifts there too. And, and just the more
(57:51) that we can bring love to those, the more we get to learn from their magic. Awesome. Thank you. (57:59) All right. Well, thank you both. This was wonderful. And I hope that the listeners (58:04) reach out and learn more because you know, you just have so much, so much to offer that's so (58:08) powerful. Awesome. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you so much. Thanks everyone. Yeah.